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PROPER HERMENEUTICS AND THE FOLLY OF THE "TWO CONVERSATION" ARGUMENT - Part 3

Studying Grammar and the Contextual Flow of The Olivet Discourse to Disprove the Doctrine of Dispensationalism

Michael F. Blume

© 2010 Michael F. Blume

All Rights Reserved



Futurists scramble trying to reason out that Matthew 24 and Luke Mark 13 were not speaking about first century destruction against Jerusalem like they know Luke 21 was. Some feel Matthew 24 mentioned some things that would occur in the first century, though. At any rate, they know if there was one conversation recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, and Luke 21's conversation was about the first century, then there is no account in the gospels that speaks about a future tribulation period. Since their textbooks demand they believe there is a future tribulation period then they have to argue anything no matter how nonsensical it is and how much it violates exegetical and hermeneutical rules of logic. This is what they have done in order to propose their two conversations.

After the disciples asked the questions that all were inspired by the destruction of the temple of which Jesus spoke, Jesus used the pronouns "you" and "ye" and told the people standing there that they would see a sequence of events occur. Now, the futurist shows another incredibly stupid manner of reasoning when they claim "you" and "ye" in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are not strictly talking about the actual people standing there. The futurists claims "ye" and "you" are used in generally speaking to the people who would live thousands of years later when these things would occur. First of all, one does not say "you" to people and not intend those people to be included in that reference. 

The bible does at times use the term "you" and "we" to refer to people of any age of the church. For example, 2 Cor, 5 is agreed by everyone to speak of new bodies which every believer shall get after this life is over, whether they are saints alive now or saints who lived and died thousands of years ago. "WE" covers all the saints of God from any age. But this cannot be the case in using YOU or YE in Matthew 24 and Mark 21 if those people alive then could not actually live to see those events Jesus said would come to pass. YOU and YE must some how involve those people to whom Jesus spoke. 

Although the futurist is forced to wreak havoc on Christ's use of these pronouns in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, they apply the terms correctly in Luke 21. Like 21:1-14 is claimed by futurists to be about the first century destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, "you" and "ye" in that discussion of Jesus does indeed refer to the people alive in that day who heard him speak. So, while the futurist uses common sense and logic in Luke 21:1-24, the futurist loses it and speaks ridiculously about the same terms used in Matthew 24 and Mark 21.
Futurists claim the "ye" and "you" in these passages do not refer to the people to whom Jesus spoke:

Mat 24:1-15 KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mar 13:5-14 KJV And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: (6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. (8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. (9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Futurists claim the "ye" and "you" in these passages do refer to the people to whom Jesus spoke:

Luke 21:8-20 KJV And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. (9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. (10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony. (14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. (16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. (18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (19) In your patience possess ye your souls. (20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Notice the sequence of events is identical in each account, and yet these are supposed to be two conversations speaking of events separated by thousands of years!

DISPENSATIONALISM IS PROVED TO BE WRONG by sheer virtue of logic and common sense in grammatical reading and analysis. It is absurd to say that the identical pronouns used in all three gospels do not mean the same people in two of the three accounts.

The following accounts are refuted by dispensationalists to be identical sequence of events.
Luke 21:3-24 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: (4) For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. (5) And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, (6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? (8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. (9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. (10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony. (14) Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. (16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. (18) But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (19) In your patience possess ye your souls. (20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Mark 13:4-23 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? (5) And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: (6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. (8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. (9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (15) And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: (16) And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. (17) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (18) And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. (19) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (21) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: (22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (23) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
They match except for variation of words that you find in any given Gospel account noted in all three Gospels! Anyone can see that! the words in red parallel each other between Luke and Mark!

And let me add this while I am at it:

Look at the matching elements:

1) Both accounts show Jesus commenting on the temple and disciples asking about THOSE things.

2) Both accounts show false Christs.

3) Both accounts show wars and rumours of wars/commotions

4) Both accounts show famines.

5) Both accounts show nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

6) Both accounts show reference for time for such things

7) Both account show believers taken up before councils, and told not to worry but the words would be given them to testify.

8) Both account show warnings that family members will betray them.

9) Both account show some will be put to death

10) Both account show a SIGN TO FLEE desolation, one associated with abomination and the other with Jerusalem surrounded by armies. -- BUT ONE COMMON "DESOLATION".

11) Both account show THEM IN JUDAEA TOLD TO FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS as a result.

12) Both account show emphasis on fleeing and not hesitating to do so.

13) Both account show specific words to mothers with children still suckling.

Dispensationalists claim the accounts do not match.  Too many matching details say otherwise. The forest is too obvious, but dispensationalists split hairs in minor points that are common in every account where the Gospels recount the same stories, but only vary in wording, anyway.  It's ridiculous beyond description to say these are not the same conversation.

And after this point in Luke, where they claim it did not match Mark nor Matthew, Luke continued with the same information Mark and Matthew continue with after this AFTER after this point in Mark and Matthew.  Had Luke started at verse 25 with the complete discussion repeated from Mark and Matthew, and not started halfway through it as dispensationalists claim, then we would have a record of two conversations proved to have occurred in sequence. But they  do not have that.  



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